I miss the Holton Bass Mods threads!

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:17 pm

Where are they? I have a Holton 181 that I am slowly building up but I miss reading the threads full of info on these wonderful instruments. Is it lost forever? Or is it possible to recreate it here on TC?

Post by **BGuttman** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:02 pm

If they aren't in the TTF Archives, Matt's 'bot didn't carry them over. Try the Wayback Machine for old TTF posts.

If it was from the period between founding and the reorganization of this site, it's gone forever. Sorry.

Post by **Neo Bri** » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:05 pm

True. But there's no reason to not start the thread over.

PhilipEdCarlson · Post by **PhilipEdCarlson** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:15 am

What do you want to do to yours? When you say building it up, is it complete, and you're just making it better, or do you have a couple parts and want to complete it? (I'm just curious because I've got one. Wondering what modifications people (like you) would want.)

Kingfan · Post by **Kingfan** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:30 am

I have a bone stock TR-180, Glanz and all. Love the sound, rarely use the second valve because of the clunky ergonomics of the bar. I would love to see mods converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers. Heck, has anybody converted a TR-180 to independent valves?

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:56 am

PhilipEdCarlson wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:15 am What do you want to do to yours? When you say building it up, is it complete, and you're just making it better, or do you have a couple parts and want to complete it? (I'm just curious because I've got one. Wondering what modifications people (like you) would want.)

Mine is complete. But the leadpipe was bad. Had it pulled and a Kanstul "C" pipe took it's place. Much better player now. I still want to play around with the pipe and I know there was a list of pipes that work well with the 181. I have heard of bell stay work that will improve the response and feel of the horn as well. There are also bell changes that are claimed to improve the horn greatly. Again, this info was in the old TTF Holton Bass mod threads.

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:58 am

Kingfan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 02, 2018 8:30 am I have a bone stock TR-180, Glanz and all. Love the sound, rarely use the second valve because of the clunky ergonomics of the bar. I would love to see mods converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers. Heck, has anybody converted a TR-180 to independent valves?

Right! I think that the old threads not only had pictures and details of converting the Glanz bar to independent triggers, but also pictures and details of 180s converted to independent valves.

Post by **Neo Bri** » Thu Aug 02, 2018 10:31 am

I know someone with a very nice example of the TR181 - and the mod he has on his is a Greenhoe Thumb Brace. Those are cool.

chrisniblett · Post by **chrisniblett** » Sat Aug 04, 2018 3:32 am

I have a Tr180 the Larry Minick split the triggers and rebuilt the wrap on it, iI've since have the lead pipe pulled to take shires thread pipes, it is fabulous, will post some pics at some point.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:49 am

Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:08 pm

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:49 am Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.

Nice work on the wraps. I am looking to have some of the bracing removed from my traditional wrap but am not sure which can be removed and which must stay.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:07 am

Backbone wrote: ↑Sat Aug 04, 2018 11:08 pm
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sat Aug 04, 2018 5:49 am Heres a very custom 181 for you. Custom wraps, custom linkage, shires slide. Top horn obviously.
Nice work on the wraps. I am looking to have some of the bracing removed from my traditional wrap but am not sure which can be removed and which must stay.

Thanks, cant take credit, this was all done before i started working on my horns myself. The 181s are definitely overbraced, but if it were me, id take them all off and start from scratch.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:54 am

Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better!

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:07 am

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:54 am Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better!

Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.

Gatt · Post by **Gatt** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:56 am

QUOTE; 'If you nail it, adding the brace won't change the sound at all'.

Wouldn't it be better to solder it?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 11:34 am

Gatt wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 7:56 am QUOTE; 'If you nail it, adding the brace won't change the sound at all'.

Wouldn't it be better to solder it?

Lol!

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:51 pm

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:07 am
mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:54 am Backbone, that's a question for a good tech like John Sandhagen or Eric Edwards who has debraced a TR181 before. Braces are weird... take the wrong one off and your horn is nothing more then a trashcan with a slide. Take the right ones off and your horn with play significantly better!
Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.

I could have worded things better in my post... but note that I never did say the word "sound".

My badly worded post was referring to the blow and response of the horn.

My tech also likes to use cork for fake braces. When he rebraced my TR180 he did the same thing and had me move the cork around and find out where I would like the braces put.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:17 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:51 pm
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:07 am Thats really just not true. Its very easy to take them off and put some back if you are accustomed to working on horns. Taking off braces wont make anything sound worse, quite the opposite actually. Ive played horns with no bracing at all, they sound fantastic (bottom horn in the photo i posted has only one brace). If you just mess around with a "fake brace" and move it around and try the horn, you'll find where to put them (your looking for spots on the tubing where it doesnt resonate, called a node). Someone feel free to correct me, but places with ferrules or tuning slides are less sensitive due to the double wall of tubing. If you nail it, adding the brace wont change the sound at all.
I could have worded things better in my post... but note that I never did say the word "sound".

My badly worded post was referring to the blow and response of the horn.

My tech also likes to use cork for fake braces. When he rebraced my TR180 he did the same thing and had me move the cork around and find out where I would like the braces put.

Cork will certainly work. Fwiw, theres a lot of horns out theres with worse bracing. I catabolized a 50b2 for my double rotor Db bass, and the amount of bracing on the thing was utterly insane.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:06 pm

"catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:14 pm

I bought a TR180 at the beginning of the year that came with "modifications" - string linkage and side-by-side thumb paddles instead of the Glantz bar. The horn had been sitting in a closet for a very long time and needed some work to get it back in order. The work done so far:

- Converted string linkage on valves to miniball
- Had the bell cut to become a screwbell
- Bought a MB screwbell case for bass trombone for easier travel

While there are still a few things I would like to have done (thumb rest, split triggers), the one thing I am looking at later in the year is having the valve tubing re-done because it is overly complicated (three tuning slides for F and bE tuning). Would prefer to simplify it to F/Eb or F/D tuning. Does anyone have any experience converting a horn valve tubing in the last several years?

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:27 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:06 pm "catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.

Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.

Post by **BGuttman** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:49 pm

Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:27 pm
BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:06 pm "catabolized"? Interesting word. I think you meant cannibalized.
Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.

When we use parts from an old machine to make a new one we usually refer to it as cannibalizing the old one. This is exactly what you did.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:04 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 4:49 pm
Jgittleson wrote: ↑Sun Aug 05, 2018 3:27 pm Technically thats inaccurate, since im not a trombone lol.
When we use parts from an old machine to make a new one we usually refer to it as cannibalizing the old one. This is exactly what you did.

Im actually just analyzing the word, or more so its origins. Technically the act of dismantling a horn, or anything else is catabolic, hence my term.

Jgittleson · Post by **Jgittleson** » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:47 pm

Ah, i stand corrected. After reading the dictionary i get why its considered cannabolic vs catabolic.

Sorry for my minor disagreement with humanity. Proceed!

chrisniblett · Post by **chrisniblett** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:36 am

A few pics

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:08 pm

Nice 180! Great shot of the split triggers.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:48 pm

I'm starting to build up a small bass. I think maybe the ultimate small bass would be a Holton 159 with a second valve, probably a dependent so you don't mess with the base horn too much. The goal is a 9" bell, 547/562 slide, and two valves, and more importantly, something that's light enough to play as a tenor, but has a big enough sound to play notes below the staff without sounding like a rip saw.

But the parts that are available to me right now are from a 680. The valve is pretty much toasted, so I'm going to replace the whole valve and wrap with a dependent double I picked up cheap.

I think the 680 comes with a 547 slide, and I'd like to upgrade that somewhat. I've got two possible solutions in mind:
1) replace the bottom tubes of the 680 slide with 562 tubes, if that's possible OR,
2) just put a Conn dual bore 547/562 slide on, and probably replace the tenon.

Does anyone have experience with the 680? It's got specs like a 150 (with a yellow bell), but with a flat wrap, and its considered a student model. I've loved all the big Holton tenors I've played (156, 159, 150), and I'm just hoping this 680 is somewhere in that ball park.

Also, any comments on the possible changes (replacing a set of slide tubes vs replacing the slide tenon)?

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:13 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:48 pmAlso, any comments on the possible changes (replacing a set of slide tubes vs replacing the slide tenon)?

Are you committed to using Holton tenor parts?
It's been a while, but my recollection of John Sandhagen's version of a small bass was fitting a King Symphony (1480) bell and tuning slide to a Bach 50. Apparently the small leg of the 1480 tuning slide is the same OD as (or at least really close to) the small leg on the 50B tuning slide (this is because the 1480 has a reverse tuning slide). I think John used the regular single-bore .562" slide, but there's not reason you couldn't put together a dual-bore .547"/.562" slide. Bach components are easier to come by than Holton, and the Bach 50 valve set would probably give you a better trigger register.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:46 pm

JohnL, I'm not committed to Holton, but
thats what I'm finding cheap right now. I was also looking at 5bs, but the Holton 159 solved everything except the double plug. The 50b2 would be a great solution especially if I could find one with a trashed bell for say $500-700. Swapping the bell would be easy, and swapping top slides is easier than bottom slides.

There's also a Wessex Super Tenor that is supposed to play like a Holton that would only need a plug in valve.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:13 pm

I'm not sure I'd consider a 159 to be in the small bass range... I had a 256 (aka the screw bell version of the 159) and even though it had the dual bore slide it was still definitely a tenor. It played low well but I never would have used it as a small bass.

5Bs always seems more bassish to me... so maybe something leaning more towards a bass might be a better idea.

It might also be worth considering something like an Olds Roberts bass or a Holton TR183 and building a dual bore slide for that. Maybe a 72H or 71H? You can get those for dirt cheap. Aren't the old school LA Olds basses 9" bells with dual bore slides? Maybe a 40s 70H with a dual bore slide?

Just some thoughts!

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:13 am

To me the 159 is a powerful instrument in all ranges. I had one and foolishly sold it, still not sure why. The wrap is more conducive to adding a second valve than the traditional 88h style closed wrap.

The Olds P24g would be perfect. I also owned one of those, but sold it because the section leader in a band I played with wanted that big bass sound instead of a more trombone bass sound. Ideally, the P24g would do just fine. But they don't grow on trees. There have been some other Olds basses on ebay recently but no P24g s. The S23 has a bigger bell and smaller valves. Also the one on the bay has been modified.

JohnL · Post by **JohnL** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:52 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:13 amThe S23 has a bigger bell and smaller valves. Also the one on the bay has been modified.

There's actually three S-23's on eBay right now. This one looks to be the nicest of the bunch:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/292680945139

If I were going to build a "super tenor" out of Olds parts, I'd actually start with an S-20 (9" bell) and graft a modern double valve set onto it. Nothing fancy like Thayers or Hagmanns - just some nice modern rotors with an open wrap. Unfortunately, you'd still be faced with the oddball receiver. A different leadpipe would cure the receiver problem, but then you have to find a leadpipe that fits a .554" upper tube.

greenbean · Post by **greenbean** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:28 pm

I am not convinced of the usefulness of bass-like tenors. If you want to play down low, just use a bass. It does everything better. If you really want a lightweight bass, the Holtons are lightweight.

But if you really insist on a project... how about building a plug-in valve for a TR183?... TR183 are about as light and comfy as a single bass gets! A way better horn with better resale value than a double plug tenor by far!\.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:37 pm

JohnL, yes, the S20 looks perfect. Now to find one....
actually, I just found a p24g on craigslist... 9.5" bell, but that's ok, I guess

Greenbean, I've got a real bass, and it's just too much for me, and too "slide euphonium-ish". Yeah, a 183 would also be nice. I'm not really worried about resale on this. This would be a horn for all the not-quite-bass playing I do, where I'm good as long as I've got a solid low C/B. I don't need a luxurious pedal F.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:59 pm

chrisniblett wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:36 am A few pics

Is that my old horn? Mine was identical.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 2:29 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:37 pm JohnL, yes, the S20 looks perfect. Now to find one....
actually, I just found a p24g on craigslist... 9.5" bell, but that's ok, I guess

Greenbean, I've got a real bass, and it's just too much for me, and too "slide euphonium-ish". Yeah, a 183 would also be nice. I'm not really worried about resale on this. This would be a horn for all the not-quite-bass playing I do, where I'm good as long as I've got a solid low C/B. I don't need a luxurious pedal F.

Don't you have a Kanstul 1662i? That's one of the lightest and smallest modern basses on the market. Single bore slide... very lightweight... no huge tapers...

What kind of mouthpiece are you using? If you're playing something big in the Schilke 60 or 59 range it might be worth it to check out something in the 1 1/2G size.

I recently made the switch from a Schilke 60 sized piece to a 1 1/2G sized piece and I couldn't be happier.

If you think the Kanstul 1662i is too "slide euphonium" then a single valved Holton might not be the best idea. They play pretty big for their size.

Is your beef with the 9 1/2" bell?

I still think a Conn 7XH series (with the tight bell flare) or Olds single with 9" bell would fit the bill. Especially since some of the 70H series and Olds George Roberts singles came stock with .547/.562 slides.

hyperbolica · Post by **hyperbolica** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:14 pm

mrdeacon,
Yes, I've got the 1662i. I've played it side by side with a Holton 159, Conn 70h, an Olds P24g, and a few others. I really like the trombony sound of the P24g. I use a DE EUPH J8 mouthpiece, which gives a decent sound, but the Kanstul just seems awkward when compared to tenors.

I use the Kanstul in a band where everybody has large horns, but I'm also in a tbone quartet where everybody uses 525 bores (including me when I'm not on bass), which is where the smaller horn will come into play.

Yeah, I like the P24g with the 9" bell. I just want to moderate the bell size and the bore. Half way between bass and tenor. That's kind of the feel/sound I'm looking for, so I'm just going with those specs. All the nickel silver on the P24g really helps brighten it up, as well. The Holton 159 has the dual bore slide. Some 1930s 70hs, and the Olds S20. Of those, only the Olds S20 has TIS, which I really like. So an Olds S20 with a second valve would be great, but I may just settle for a stock P24g if the one I found falls into my hands.

It's a lot of nitpicking about specs, but it's going to come down to what I can actually find in a reasonable amount of time, at a reasonable cost, in reasonable condition. You know how that goes.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:32 pm

Ahh. That explains some things. I understand more where you're coming from! I'll still let my previous comments stand for anyone in the future who might stumble upon this thread.

A TR159 or similar large tenor could work as the bottom voice in a quartet like that. I'm still not sure it'd be the best choice for your band but it sure could work in the quartet. Honestly even a nice large bore tenor like a Conn 88H or Bach 42B can make for a good bottom voice in that instrumentation. Large bore tenors can really honk in the register when you need them to!

Yeah if you're not used to a full sized bass it could definitely feel cumbersome.

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 6:36 pm

I vote for the 183. 9" bell, nice low range but not heavy, and a surprisingly good upper range. Plug in valve and a 1 1/2G, 2G, or 3G mouthpiece would be great!. It really is a lighter bass.

jthomas105 · Post by **jthomas105** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:27 am

I have a 2nd TR181 being shipped that I picked up on ebay last Friday that had an unbelievable "buy it now" price. The one I have now is not in the best shape but works and my son will be playing it as he goes through high school.

When I get my "new" one I am interested in having the lead pipe pulled. For those that have done this what do you recommend? Brassark MV50 (what metal), MK Drawing Bach 50 or George Roberts?

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:11 pm

You can't go wrong with Brad's pipes. My personal favorite in my Holtons was the TR185 Schatz/Minick pipe.

Both the MV50B pipe and NY50B pipe also work well. The MV being a tighter more focused pipe, but not too tight, and the NY being a much more open pipe, but not too open. A friend has one of Brad's NY50B pipes in his late TR180 and the horn is killer with it.

You'd also be surprised at how well a stock Elkhart 50B pipe works in Holtons. Shires #1 and #2 pipes also work pretty well too.

Personally I'd stick with yellow brass for the pipe material. Holtons are already pretty warm and dark. In my experience if I used a gold brass or copper pipe in certain horns it made them too dark and too warm. I never have tried nickel or sterling pipe in a Holton though!

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:39 pm

One of the best mods I did was have the leadpipe pulled. I put in a Kanstul copy of a Minick "C". I would love to try others out and the above suggestions are what I will go by.

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:41 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:59 pm
chrisniblett wrote: ↑Mon Aug 13, 2018 7:36 am A few pics
Is that my old horn? Mine was identical.

Yah know, they do look similar!

WeekendWailer · Post by **WeekendWailer** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:04 pm

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:39 pm One of the best mods I did was have the leadpipe pulled. I put in a Kanstul copy of a Minick "C". I would love to try others out and the above suggestions are what I will go by.

Did you also change the triggers? The F trigger looks lower than on mine and is missing a brace. Your Gb also looks a bit longer.

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:48 pm

F trigger is the same as when I got it so not sure. Gb is lengthened for comfort. It is adjustable.

WeekendWailer · Post by **WeekendWailer** » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:55 pm

Backbone wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:48 pm F trigger is the same as when I got it so not sure. Gb is lengthened for comfort. It is adjustable.

I guess mine has the same trigger arm but on yours, they bent it to get it out of the way of your thumb. I use a brace on mine too because it is a heavy horn.

mrdeacon · Post by **mrdeacon** » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:57 pm

Ugh that design makes me frustrated. Why didn't they just use the same design they already had for the late Leblanc Holton TR185s? (There were multiple trigger configurations for the TR185 which is why I specified late)

By putting the trigger they way they did on your guy's TR181s they solved a problem that didn't need to be solved! haha

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:01 pm

mrdeacon wrote: ↑Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:57 pm Ugh that design makes me frustrated. Why didn't they just use the same design they already had for the late Leblanc Holton TR185s? (There were multiple trigger configurations for the TR185 which is why I specified late)

By putting the trigger they way they did on your guy's TR181s they solved a problem that didn't need to be solved! haha

I'd love to see a pic!

Backbone · Post by **Backbone** » Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:30 pm

Just confirming that removing some of the braces has made my 181 play much better. Low C and B are much easier.

flotrb · Post by **flotrb** » Sun Nov 17, 2019 7:08 pm

I have an 1962 original Holton 169 Bb/F rose brass bass trombone
(serial # 355xxx) that I bought from Dorothy Ziegler (1st trombone St. Louis Symphony) in 1965 and have been playing since then. I pondered adding a second valve, but since the original 2nd valve attachment and noisy linkage were no longer available, I asked my local repairman, Joe Sellmansberger (also great tuba player) for a consultation.

Here is a link to my repairman's web posting:
<http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35346>
which explains the procedure. The modification works fantastically (I especially like the security in knowing that the low B is going to solidly be there).