TromboneChat

Hi,

as an amateur player with a fairly weak upper range (I can squeak a Db5 on rare occasions, my stable range goes up to about A4 or Bb4), I often read advice only regarding high range playing. A very frequent advice it to play in a relaxed manner, with no tension, minimal effort etc. The thing is, all these people who say that, they already have a high range. So I've been thinking: If you are able to play ultra high, e.g. F5 or above, then of course you can play, say, a Bb4 with almost no effort whatsoever. But is it still a valid advice for those of us not (yet) blessed with a high range?

Consider this analogy: You've decided to take up weightlifting. You've never lifted weights before, so lifting, say, 50 kg is just about as much as you can handle. Then, at the gym, when struggling with the 50 kg, some big guy comes up to you, pushing 150 kg, and says: "Hey, you should relax more! Lift with less tension!". Obviously, HE could lift 50 kg while completely relaxed. But does that mean that you should try to be relaxed?

My point is: When we're trying to build range, whether we're struggling with F4, Bb4, F5 or something higher, should we not expect to have at least some effort, tension etc? Isn't the "no pain, no gain" saying valid for high playing on the trombone? Or should we really try to keep our effort low, which in my case would mean playing up to (but never beyond) G4? And hope that the notes above will make themselves available to me at a later time?

No, there is a lot of work to play ultra high. The work is to control those small muscles that holds your emboushure
The thing with those who struggle with high range and can not do it is they often work to hard with the wrong muscles which build tensions in a lot of areas that need to be relaxed. That work is contra productive and you can hear the tensions in their sound. Throat must be relaxed, jaw must be relaxed, tongue, arms and shoulders and so on, in short most of the body needs to be relaxed and you only need as much tension as to hold up your body and instrument in a playing position. The rest is technique. The tension and muscle work needed is to hold the lips in place. Air is what is needed to make any sound and you push that air through your lips but not in a way that is painful and hard. Air is what makes lips come together and vibrate. Don't push the mouthpiece against the lips. Muscles need to build, the right muscles. If you can avoid to build up resistence in your body behind the lips and only use the minimal muscle work needed in your emboushure then with air you might solve the puzzle.

/Tom

What Tom said.

Lots of progress is learning to not do the effortful stuff you were doing that didn't in fact contribute.

Sure there is tension as you go high, but it's lots less than I thought it would be.

The most valuable exercise ever is to alternate between partials with no effort in the middle range. Then find how to move that effortless warble into adjacent note, partials, ranges.

An air support (meaning the strength of your diaphragm and your breathing manner) is also important. Because the high range of brass instrument is essentially “overblowing”, one needs more air, generally faster, to push the lips up the partials. There are many ways to make the air faster, and many ways of that include constricting the air passage or squeezing lips, both of them squeeze the tone and also make other areas tense. A strong diaphragm support can make the air faster without constricting or choking the airflow.

As I've worked through the hurdles toward expanded range I have to constantly remind myself to 'do less' - it's very easy to let the large and strong muscles at the outer edges of your embouchure overwhelm and close off the inner aperture as I move up the scale.

Yeah, it's not about tension. It is about relaxing. And it is all about getting the airstream, aperture, and compression correct for the pitch you want.

Sure, there will be more pressure in the upper register, but it shouldn't be a lot more.

I don't know if my experience will help you at all, but I learned to play high from a bass trombonist. He taught me to firm up the corners of my lips and bring them toward the center. Once I got the corners firm, it helped me control the aperture better. Air support is important, but without a controlled aperture you really don't have any thing.

To learn to control the aperture, my bass trombone playing teacher had me focus on lip slurs, like Remington or Marsteller exercises, along with Arbans intervals. You'll feel the strength come and then you'll be able to play high and your endurance increases.

There's more to playing than range, though. You have to develop all these things together. So firm corners, good tone, lip slurs, intervals, speed, accuracy.

When I was in music school back in the 20th century, I had a decent high range. Looking back, it was mainly strength.

Now, I appreciate there’s more to it, that there’s technique to be mastered. Aperture, tongue, air.

What does it mean to "play the partials" and "work the partials"?

I googled "partials" and read a page about them on Wiki, but ...? What are partials as they relate to playing the trombone and developing your embouchure and range"? How do I practice partials?

Partial is a word often used to talk about bugle notes.

Usually, first partial is pedal Bb and other notes reached by moving the slide.
Second begins at low Bb, bottom of bass staff.
Fourth begins at middle Bb, top of bass staff.
Eighth begins at high Bb, middle of treble staff.
Sixteenth begins at double high Bb, above treble staff.

Now, there are partials to bend into also.

Bend low Bb down to F# to get what could be called Partial 1.5 (but no one says that).
Bend pedal Bb similarly for what could be Partial 0.5.

And some are able to get one or two sensible Bb octaves lower, and that's a note you can actually see vibrating better than hear it.

Anyway, earlier I suggested "The most valuable exercise ever is to alternate between partials with no effort in the middle range. Then find how to move that effortless warble into adjacent note, partials, ranges." Hopefully that makes sense now. Try third partial F to fourth partial Bb. Three ways seem to make the change: blow hard/soft, tense/relax the chops, move the tongue. Among these only tongue movement seems effortless.

henrikbe wrote: ↑Sat Dec 15, 2018 3:50 pm Consider this analogy: You've decided to take up weightlifting. You've never lifted weights before, so lifting, say, 50 kg is just about as much as you can handle. Then, at the gym, when struggling with the 50 kg, some big guy comes up to you, pushing 150 kg, and says: "Hey, you should relax more! Lift with less tension!". Obviously, HE could lift 50 kg while completely relaxed. But does that mean that you should try to be relaxed?

My point is: When we're trying to build range, whether we're struggling with F4, Bb4, F5 or something higher, should we not expect to have at least some effort, tension etc? Isn't the "no pain, no gain" saying valid for high playing on the trombone? Or should we really try to keep our effort low, which in my case would mean playing up to (but never beyond) G4? And hope that the notes above will make themselves available to me at a later time?

I want to add something to what I said previously in my first post to you, and that is to take it slow. You need to build muscles.

I know exactly what you are experiencing. It resonates well with me because I too had big problems with emboushure, and to play high once.

In my teens I was frustrated to see my friends go up in the stratosphere while I was struggeling to play an f above the staff. I thought they were naturally stronger than me. I too had thoughts just like yours that It must be easy for those who can. If you are strong then it is easy to lift and If you are weak the same is heavy work.

Back 30-35 years from now that weightlifting analogy had made much sense to me, and that was because it was a lot of work to play anything and especially a few ledgers above the staff.

Today is not the same. One thing is I did a complete change in my enboushure when I was 17. I had reached a dead end, and that change helped me and put me on track again. Today an analogy with heavylifting is not something that describes my playing on the trombone. It has much more to do with technique than streangth. I think "judo" is a much better sport to compare to. The key is to find out how - with minimal tension in your lips - you can use the air effectively to go higher. It is not the same as to say there is no tension in the lips. There must be tension in the lips, but like in "judo" you have to make the opponent - in this case the air - to do the work for you, that's where technique comes into the picture. Then there is other things like the angle you blow and other small tweeks that can be used to fine tune the playing. A teacher can help.

/Tom

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 16, 2018 6:17 am Partial is a word often used to talk about bugle notes. ...

If, for example, I play "taps" on my trombone in first (or any) position, am I using partials? If so, then I understand. If not, then I don't.

1 pedal Bb (lowest note)
2 Bb
3 F
4 Bb ("tuning" Bb)
5 D
6 F
7 Ab
8 Bb
9 C
10 D
11 E
12 F (higher note)

partials. Moving the slide out will lower the pitch of any of those partials, but you're still locked on that partial, so to speak. Each partial is like a string on a guitar, and moving the slide is like moving to a different fret on the same string.

Engaging the F attachment is like switching to an entirely different guitar with different strings, and not enough frets.

Lip bending is not like getting partial 1.5 -- it's like playing a string and not fully depressing down on a fret.

Also, I wouldn't compare the upper register embouchure to weight lifting. It's not like that. It's a fine motor skill. Can you hold your hand out without it shaking? Can you move just your pinky toe? It's about control and not so much brute strength.

Yes. 1st partial is pedal Bb, also known as the fundamental. 2nd partial is low Bb, also know as the 1st harmomic.

Remington has several exercises based on the harmonic series that involve moving up and down the harmonics/partials to help with strength, range, and endurance. Just doing the exercises won’t necessarily build strength, range, and endurance, though. As you ascend in pitch, maintain a full, resonant sound that is stable and in tune. Some people find that they need to make embouchure refinements as they change registers... I’ll leave that to the experts...

Ok, thanks for all the replies. "Fine motor skill" seems like a good explanation, as it still involves exercise. I had gotten the impression that it was all about finding the right technique, that is, more of a search than actual exercise. But that would not be the right way to describe it, right? Since you will need to do exercise.

But still. Even the pros get fatigue, right? So you have to use some kind of muscular strength. And even if you can play really high, say, to F5, without effort, would you not be able to play even higher if you were to apply some (or a lot of) effort? I ask because I'm trying to figure out what's going on, and where I'm standing. Right now I can play a G4 without effort, and maybe a C5 with lots of effort. Does that necessarily mean that I need to change my embouchure in some way, in order to get the C5 with no effort too? Or am I actually on the right track, but just need more time? E.g., am I "like a pro", but just an octave (or whatever) lower, and given time, likely to at least climb a few tones closer to the pro (as I have already climbed two or three semitones the last half year or so)?

Oh, and by the way, of course I know high range isn't everything. I have loads of other weaknesses to work on too
And I do focus on those other things as well. But high range is so much more quantifiable, so it's easier to measure, compare with others, and with myself a few months ago.

Think about a violin player. When they put their finger on a string, it makes the pitch higher, because they have reduced the vibrating length of that string. That's what you are doing with your lips - using the muscles in your lips to essentially squeeze the lips together and making a smaller aperture. That reduces the vibrational length and makes the pitch higher. But your lips don't innately know how to do that, so you have to train them. You can cheat and use more mouthpiece pressure to squeeze the lips together, but you will hit a wall that you will not be able to progress beyond. It requires effort, but effort alone will not bring the desired result. You have to practice playing high notes to be able to play high notes.

If you need to change your emboushure or not is impossible to say based on what you share. If you can play a three ledger g without effort then that sounds as you are on track but take lessons and you will get help with this question as well as other problems.

I think you've got the information sorted. You are right in your presumption that pros get tired to. They do and you are right they have about another octave before they hit the roof.

All playing must be done with as little effort as possible. The point is if you can play without effort up to the 6 ledger F and squeeze another fifth then the bread register is no problem at all. Everybody needs to move some borders to get better, even professionals.That's what made them professionals.

..and you are right it is a search to find what's right for you and it is going on as you practice. There is no quick fix for any of us, some are more fortunate than others to have a body that can hold much air or have strong and long arms and a strong back to hold the instrument but even though there are such natural talents, everybody needs a lot of practice to make use of what they've got. Mostly it is about hard work and addiction/commitment. I think most people could be a professional player if they invest their time and put the work it takes into it. To be one of the best in the world? I don't think hard work is enough for this. It is but a few with special personalities who can make that happen.

/Tom