TromboneChat

I often plays 2nd in the wind orchestra, but every now and then I play 1st for a concert or during marching. I would really appreciate suggestions for a mouthpiece that gives me and the Conn 88H some help to reach those high notes better. And no, practising more is not an option right now.
The upper register have never been easy for me, and I hope to find a mouthpiece that gives me a little more upper register, but still let me maintain nice tone in the middle register.

What mouthpiece are you currently using on your 88H?

Falin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:30 am And no, practising more is not an option right now.
The upper register have never been easy for me, and I hope to find a mouthpiece that gives me a little more upper register, but still let me maintain nice tone in the middle register.

That smiley says everything. You know you're not asking the right question.

But I am about to sell a Griego 1B that is just the ticket for unlimited upper register access. Keep your eyes peeled on the classifieds.

No mouthpice blows itself. Unless the mouthpiece you are playing right now is very strange you should keep it. A good mouthpiece is always a compromise. You want good low register, good high register, good sound, good flexibility and so on. You need the advice from a teacher who can see what you are doing and he might suggest another mouthpiece if it is totally wrong. This question has many answers and the risk is high none will be the right one.

/Tom

No mouthpiece will “give” you an upper register. Any change in mouthpiece comes with a price, hence imsevimse’s statement, “A good mouthpiece is always a compromise.” It’s not how much you practice, but what and how you practice. Planning, focus, and patience are required. A teacher who is knowledgeable about embouchure is helpful, too.

No.

I’m still waiting to hear what he is playing on now.

pompatus wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 6:21 am What mouthpiece are you currently using on your 88H?

I choose not to write that, since I wanted an open discussion regarding this, but it´s a pretty large one.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:35 am

Falin wrote: ↑Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:30 am And no, practising more is not an option right now.
The upper register have never been easy for me, and I hope to find a mouthpiece that gives me a little more upper register, but still let me maintain nice tone in the middle register.

That smiley says everything. You know you're not asking the right question.

But I am about to sell a Griego 1B that is just the ticket for unlimited upper register access. Keep your eyes peeled on the classifieds.

Unlimited upper register access - now were talking!!

I am perfectly aware that no mouthpiece blows itself, and that I won´t be given a upper register by changing mouthpiece. I also know what and how much practise needed to maintain a really good high register, and right now I don´t have the time. Also, I am not looking for "really good", I am happy with good enough at this point. And let´s be honest, there are shortcuts to be found with the right mouthpiece, even though trombonists in common seems to be reluctant to admit that. Just ask any trumpetplayer!

As an example, some years ago I tried a CL-mouthpiece. It really improved my upper register, but it also made me stand out from the orchestra soundwise. Of course there will be a compromise, there always is, I am compromising with the mouthpiece I am currently using as well.

I believe it was Doug Elliott who said you should play the smallest mouthpiece you have a good low register on.

First, ditch the Conn 88H for marching. It's not designed for that and you stand a good chance of damaging it pretty bad.

If you have your old Student horn it may have an easier high register simply because you will be playing a smaller mouthypiece.

Remember, there is no free lunch. A smaller or shallower mouthpiece will help the upper register but at the expense of the lower register.

On an 88H I would not be playing anything larger than a Bach 3G. If your 88H has the older taper you should be playing a Remington mouthpiece, which has a great response range. My teacher in High School played an 88H with a Remington mouthpece and played easily from trigger pedal C to F at the top of the treble staff (6 ledger lines above bass).

Note that if the CL mouthpiece changed your balance with the section, it's probably more you than the mouthpiece. You are playing it "wrong".

"I believe it was Doug Elliott who said you should play the smallest mouthpiece you have a good low register on."

I don't think I actually said that but that's sort of a good rule I guess.

The bigger point is that there are different rules for different embouchure types. Of the two major types, one needs a relatively large diameter to have an adequate low range, and the other needs a relatively small diameter to have an adequate high range. I don't like to make recommendations without knowing the particulars, and most players have no idea which type they are.

If you are using a piece that's too big for YOU, you can expect high range difficulty, practice or not.

I don't know what mouthpiece will suit you. Strange thing about me is I have about same register no matter what mouthpiece I blow. Except trumpet mouthpiece where I neither have low or high register. Maybe ask Doug for a lesson?
Leif

The Chanson 6.5AL hybrid

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 am "I believe it was Doug Elliott who said you should play the smallest mouthpiece you have a good low register on."

I don't think I actually said that but that's sort of a good rule I guess.

I remember that quote being posted by Sam Burtis on the old forum, attributed to Jimmy Knepper, as:

“Play the smallest mouthpiece that you can get a clear low E natural on.”

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 am The bigger point is that there are different rules for different embouchure types. Of the two major types, one needs a relatively large diameter to have an adequate low range, and the other needs a relatively small diameter to have an adequate high range.

How can i test which major type i am? I have small lips with not much red flesh. As a boy i played trumpet until i becomes paraplegic after my crash with my mototcycle.

Redthunder wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:32 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 am "I believe it was Doug Elliott who said you should play the smallest mouthpiece you have a good low register on."

I don't think I actually said that but that's sort of a good rule I guess.

I remember that quote being posted by Sam Burtis on the old forum, attributed to Jimmy Knepper, as:

“Play the smallest mouthpiece that you can get a clear low E natural on.”

That’s where I heard it. It was Sam.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:19 am First, ditch the Conn 88H for marching. It's not designed for that and you stand a good chance of damaging it pretty bad.

If you have your old Student horn it may have an easier high register simply because you will be playing a smaller mouthypiece.

Remember, there is no free lunch. A smaller or shallower mouthpiece will help the upper register but at the expense of the lower register.

On an 88H I would not be playing anything larger than a Bach 3G. If your 88H has the older taper you should be playing a Remington mouthpiece, which has a great response range. My teacher in High School played an 88H with a Remington mouthpece and played easily from trigger pedal C to F at the top of the treble staff (6 ledger lines above bass).

Note that if the CL mouthpiece changed your balance with the section, it's probably more you than the mouthpiece. You are playing it "wrong".

I actually like marching with my 88H, and I have done it since -95 without damaging it at all. It´s only got a minor dent - from a tubaist knocking it over in a break during practise.... It´s silverplated, and I don´t know if that makes it more resistant somehow?

Thanks for the suggestions!

Redthunder wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:32 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:32 am "I believe it was Doug Elliott who said you should play the smallest mouthpiece you have a good low register on."

I don't think I actually said that but that's sort of a good rule I guess.

I remember that quote being posted by Sam Burtis on the old forum, attributed to Jimmy Knepper, as:

“Play the smallest mouthpiece that you can get a clear low E natural on.”

Interesting. I have always thought about it the other way around; play the largest mouthpiece that you can get a good high register on. Time to reconsider!

In my mind they are the same rule and will arrive at the same size. It's the old "glass half full or half empty" situation

But it's partly dependent on playing correctly for your own embouchure type, because if you're mixing or switching types you may arrive at the wrong answer and have continuing troubles.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:19 am In my mind they are the same rule and will arrive at the same size. It's the old "glass half full or half empty" situation

But it's partly dependent on playing correctly for your own embouchure type, because if you're mixing or switching types you may arrive at the wrong answer and have continuing troubles.

Yes, the result is probably the same, but I think it sends different signals.

In the first case you go bigger and bigger until it does not work and then you go back to the last you could play and in the other case you go smaller and smaller. It sort of sets different goals either to be able to play as big mouthpiece as possible or as small as possible. And the question remains; What is a good low E and what is a good sound? The saying makes sense first after you know what sound you want, and after you are skilled enough to play many sizes of mouthpieces and when you own or have access to a lot of mouthpieces, because it takes some time to investigate each mouthpiece.

I think the choice depends more on what you are going to do. It is hard to kill a mosquito with a rifle and hard to kill an elephant with your bare hands. The right tool..

/Tom

If you go through life thinking a 6-1/2AL is a big mouthpiece because all of your jazz heros play 11C and 12C, you may never find out that you would play better on a very large rim size like a 3G (my 104 size) and have better high range.

If you're a different embouchure type and play a 4G or bigger rim size because that's what your orchestral heros play, you may never find out that you would have a much easier time with better sound and better endurance on a 5G or smaller size rim.

Regardless of the genre or horn size, use the mouthpiece size that fits YOU best. And allows you to play the full range without fracking either end.

But how do you know if the mpc is right when you have to adapt to it? It isn’t like, as some suggest, trying on a pair of shoes. Or is it?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:57 pm But how do you know if the mpc is right when you have to adapt to it? It isn’t like, as some suggest, trying on a pair of shoes. Or is it?

It took me 17 years to learn that the 4G/5G range was way too small for my face and that a 1.5G/2G range was the right fit.

It takes time! A teacher who specializes in embouchure can reduce that time, maybe.

It took me many years to understand that going larger and larger never could solve my problem with range. A total change of emboushure and back to my 12C was the way to solve my problem. Now I play any mouthpiece from a Bach 11C to a Bach 1 1/4 and can make any of them work. I do find that old 12C a little awkward if I try it today, but I think it is the profile of the rim - the edge - more than the small size. I have a Mnt Vernon 12C that works. It does not feel the same. I use Bach 11 C-ish on small bore and Bach 5-ish on my medium and large bore with a few different cups and 1 1/4-ish on bass.

For me the thing I needed was a fresh start. I have never experienced that a mouthpieces has solved anything in my playing other than temporary just after a switch. Problems has always come back. Hard work and practice to get the chops in a good playing position and good condition was what helped.

/Tom

The more I practice, the better my mpc works. Changes of any sort require an adjustment, some minor, some major, depending, not surprisingly, on the magnitude of the change. The best all-round mpc for me seems to be about the size of a 5G.

In my opinion and experience, a change to the right size or at least in the right direction requires very little adjustment and no "honeymoon" situation.

It's lateral change (to a similar size that's still wrong) or in the wrong direction (smaller when you need bigger, or vice versa) that require time to adjust or have the honeymoon effect.

When people are talking about "big" and "small" in this thread, I wonder how many of you are thinking about rim size and how many about cup depth. Doug was explicitly talking about rim size. When it comes to ease of high range or good sounding low range though, isn't that more a matter of cup depth? It seems to be for me, anyway, but I'm very inexperienced.

That is somewhat true because shallower cups help resonate high frequencies and deep cups favor lower frequencies, however I'm referring more to the interaction of the lips to the rim size in function and how that is different for different embouchure types. One type needs the help of a smaller rim in the high range and the other type needs the help of a larger rim in the low range.

I realize that most people reading this have no idea what I'm talking about, but maybe that makes some sense based on your experience.

To respond to Sev, on the idea that "it's not the mouthpiece, it's the player".

It can be a mix of both, depending on the player. I played on 12C mouthpieces for years, because I was told "that's what you play lead on". And I sounded absolutely abysmal on anything larger. I also had range, endurance, and swelling issues whenever I played. The biggest problem was the incorrect ways I was using my chops. However this was partially caused and exacerbated by my choice of such a small rim size. An example of this is how I kept too loose of an aperture formation. I needed a loose aperture to get any kind of acceptable sound on a rim that was too small for my face, especially in the middle and lower registers, but as a result, I had to mash my face against the mouthpiece to play in the upper registers because I had none of the correct muscles developed to create the necessary compression. The conclusion at the time I came to was that "I couldn't possibly play on anything larger, because my high range is nonexistent on anything bigger!". It's a feedback loop, and I couldn't figure out that the rim size was contributing to my bad habits. I probably tried at least a hundred different types of 12C sized mouthpieces.

Fastforward 3 years later, after lessons with Doug, Dave Wilken, and hours and hours of correct and informed practice, and a move to a much larger rim size, (5 sized, or Doug's 101 rims), I now can play any and all ranges on small and large tenor, with no endurance or chop issues. I've gained a usable octave above high b-flat, and have accessed pedal tones that were previously impossible for me without an extreme mouthpiece shift. The OTHER byproduct is that now that my approach to embouchure is that now, I'm able to pick up small rims and play them, including 12Cs. They are still the wrong size for my face, but because of all of the other good habits I learned, if I absolutely had to play one in a pinch, I could do so. Could I have learned those habits while staying on the small rim? Maybe, but it probably would have been incredibly frustrating and cost me even more time. That would have never happened if not for the lessons learned from Doug, including the move to a larger rim. And believe me, I resisted that suggestion for a long time.

Compared to many players, my experience rougher than most players (but not uncommon, especially for upstream type players), however the idea of playing the right size rim for your face can benefit any player if they take the time to do it right.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:19 am That is somewhat true because shallower cups help resonate high frequencies and deep cups favor lower frequencies, however I'm referring more to the interaction of the lips to the rim size in function and how that is different for different embouchure types. One type needs the help of a smaller rim in the high range and the other type needs the help of a larger rim in the low range.

I realize that most people reading this have no idea what I'm talking about, but maybe that makes some sense based on your experience.

I need the help of the small rim in the high register and the help of the large rim in the low register, that's why I switch depending on what to play.

I know I can not play everything on my Bach 11C mouthpiece. I have an adapter so I can use it with my large bore trombones and I have tried this but the low notes on the valve do not speak very well. The pedal G is the lowest secure note and the Gb is weak. I switch to a "raised" emboushure to get the F and below. .

With the Bach 5-ish mouthpieces it is about the same register but I can get a good sound on the valve F on T1 and down to pedal G. The pedal Gb is soft but usable and the F is weak so I have to change to a "raised" emboushure there. I have four different cups that only affect sound

On my 1 1/4 that I use on bass trombone I can play down to pedal Eb normal and then pedal D is weak. I change there.

On every mouthpiece I can get the high notes but stamina is better on the smaller mouthpieces. I guess the conclusion could be I could use a large rim on everything, but to me the endurance iissue is also important.

I have always thought the sound is affected by the rimsize and the cup and not only the cup. If that's the case it strikes me there could be another explanation to why I'm helped by switching. When I feel the smaller rim I'm after a different sound compared to when I feel the larger rim. Either this or that.

/Tom

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:19 am I realize that most people reading this have no idea what I'm talking about, but maybe that makes some sense based on your experience.

This is not very musical playing, but here is the sort of range I got after getting the correct rim size, and the effect that different cup sizes have on range. I mostly made this to sell my 1B.

Haha, the switch to small bore and alto did not go so well! I think I need longer than a few notes to switch instruments.

“It takes time! A teacher who specializes in embouchure can reduce that time, maybe.”

Let’s see - I’ve been playing 54 years. My teacher says I’m making good progress.

Actually, I’ve had lessons relatively recently with R Sauer and Doug E that went some distance in teaching me how my embouchure is supposed to operate. And a mpc approx the size of a 5G seems to be an all-round workable compromise.

Harrison,
Are you in a tent? Couldn't watch it at work, I'll do that at home, but the opening shot looks like it.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Thu Dec 20, 2018 2:23 pm Harrison,
Are you in a tent? Couldn't watch it at work, I'll do that at home, but the opening shot looks like it.

Nope! My basement. The material in the ceiling is a lame attempt at sound proofing.

It's not really a good video, but I think it is relevant to some of this topic.