TromboneChat

I have no particular ambition to develop a sonorous symphonic sound, concentrating mainly on jazz and pop. I would probably be playing section in community symphonic bands, at best. My sound goal is similar to Nils Lindberg's (free lance) or James Pankow's (Chicago).

I am wondering if it's best to begin learning (brain implant) extended positions or begin right with learning alternate positions which, it seems to me, I would be using most of the time. That is positions closest to P1.


I realize you must walk before you run, but am not an impatient kid, rather an experienced professional (trumpet/French horn-about 50 years) and I also know how important it is to implant things into your subconscious right from the beginning.

Which would you recommend? Thanks, Gary

I would recommend brad edwards lip slurs to learn these unless you have a straight horn.

Surely a naïve question, but what do slurs of harmonics have to do with slide positions?

Gary wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:22 pm Surely a naïve question, but what do slurs of harmonics have to do with slide positions?

When you go higher in outer positions, you are using positions that you wouldn't usually use (think C above the bass clef in 6th, for instance). This will clue you in to where they are.

Basically, every position that you use for an octave below also works every octave higher... That's another way to look at it.

I don't know what "straight horn" is.
Can I use those exercises if I have an Urbie Green trombone?

Become familiar with all the positions, and then choose which ones work for any given passage in the charts you play. Logic and ease of movement will guide you. Since you've been playing brass for 50 years, you know that patience is paramount.

Straight horn is one without an "F" attachment (they are crooked horns )

Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..

Thanks, folks!

If you can find a copy of Tom Malone's book, that will help a lot.

On order, thanks.

Pre59 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:26 am Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..

Done, thanks.

Gary wrote: ↑Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:49 pm

Pre59 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:26 am Gary, have attached a note/slide chart. Suggest that that you print it out and practice with it..

Done, thanks.

Hope you find it useful. I made this chart to help find patterns and scales for improvising, and I've laminated a copy and use a marker to save interesting phrases and intervals. For a long time I've been working on playing from the middle positions outward, rather than from the top positions downwards. So I treat the 3rd position as home which makes the lower positions more accessible and usable.
When I was a Cello student my teacher told me that the key to playing any stringed instrument is to know where every note is, in all positions, and I've tried to use this idea on the Tbn.

Caveat, anyone who's on an academic path may be wise to ignore the "3rd position as home" concept..

I typically practice improvised patterns using alternate positions such as some arpeggios and broken scales that lend themselves to “fretting” using muscle memory and a different starting point for the pattern. I will be more analytical / strategic as to which positions facilitate music expression if I am working on a piece of music I am learning and have the luxury of time to practice it. If I am sight reading I seem to default to whatever I have been able to ingrain for scales etc. which may not be optimal. Over time, you can default to alternate position more naturally as using them becomes “second nature”. I’d say practice and learn using alternate positions as part of your regular practice routine to improve your ability to use them “on demand”

Another suggestion for practicing alternates (and how I learned them) is to buy the Buddy Baker method book, which really is just a book covering a scale-based daily routine. The value here is that alternate positions are written in when it makes contextual sense for the scale (eg, 3rd pos C -> 4th pos D -> 3rd pos Eb on Eb major, 3rd Eb->4th F->3rd Gb for Gb major), as well as the +/- tuning tendencies for a given partial so that you don't have to puzzle it out. I'm sure there are other books that do this too, as it isn't rocket surgery, but it is nicely presented IMO.

One of my earliest teachers had me work out of that book back in middle school, so using alternates has been ingrained in me since almost the beginning. You don't need the book itself if you add alternates into your scale exercises, but I find it a nice resource and still use it for a lot of my daily routine when I've got time to spare.

rllantin wrote: ↑Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:28 am I typically practice improvised patterns using alternate positions such as some arpeggios and broken scales that lend themselves to “fretting” using muscle memory and a different starting point for the pattern. I will be more analytical / strategic as to which positions facilitate music expression if I am working on a piece of music I am learning and have the luxury of time to practice it. If I am sight reading I seem to default to whatever I have been able to ingrain for scales etc. which may not be optimal. Over time, you can default to alternate position more naturally as using them becomes “second nature”. I’d say practice and learn using alternate positions as part of your regular practice routine to improve your ability to use them “on demand”

Me2. Really low bar alt practice is to use them in bands on the easy parts. It's a great way to get your ear in tune with them.

In addition, as I work patterns, usually scalewise, I will be flexible with their interpretation at different places on the horn. Some stuff just does not work in some places. So I try to capture the "sense" of it with position/note/rhythm modifications. Some things work almost everywhere, like turns. Others, like 1357 2468 kind of things not so much. And then stuff like 53 42 is subject to endless variation.

Things to try include working a pattern in one tonality, like dominant, and then end on some part of tonic somehow. It may be that a little chromatic thing can make the move in an interesting way. Also 2 5 tonality. And circle the fourths. Things sometimes don't work well down 5 or up 4 so finding new things of the same sense (inversions with other modifications) can make it happen in the same neighborhood. Move up the structure.

It is interesting how much can be done without many alt positions. 4 mostly 5 sometimes. Some parts of the horn have a remarkable performance envelope, others not much. I really would have like to have seen Willie Dennis in action, for instance, as I can't think of a way to do his stuff without all the positions.

I love challenging myself to play pieces entirely with positions no less than 4th. At least just for fun.

Check out The Virtuoso Trombone by Mantia. It is old school; you might be able to download it free. It does an excellent job of exploring alternate positions in musical contexts.

I second the usefulness of the Baker method as it gives logical alternate positions in the scale section.

Well after reading some of the posts and having Bones' book arrived, I realize that this is actually a more complex question than I originally thought. Thank you for your suggestions.

Not really though. Just learn all the notes you can play in any given partial. There will always be 7 (unless the partial is a really flat one), and the higher you go, the less they matter out past the bell.

I believe one of the difficulties with “alternate” positions is that they are taught as alternates, almost like second class citizens. I was fortunate that one of my teachers stressed learning and using them, but also not to think of them as “alternates,” but as equivalent positions.

I don’t have Buddy Baker’s book or Tom Malone’s book. I approach equivalent positions by listening for tone quality and intonation. Yes, the tone quality to the player will be slightly different, and the horn’s feedback is different. But actively using them to make them sound the same is the only way to develop facility with equivalent positions.

I believe this is like Joseph Alessi’s “tone cloning”: making every note you play sound exactly like the note you just played. I use equivalent positions into my warm-ups and scale routines. Paul Faulise uses a similar idea in his routine books by suggesting that bass trombonists use all possible equivalent slide and valve positions to develop flexibility and familiarity with equivalent positions.

If I'm not misquoting his idea, Sam Burtis recommends your last point when practicing flexibilities. For instance, include the low f and the c in 1st position when doing those flexibilities. Soon you'll find ways of incorporating notes like the valved low Bb, a, and ab into what you do.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:15 am I believe this is like Joseph Alessi’s “tone cloning”: making every note you play sound exactly like the note you just played. I use equivalent positions into my warm-ups and scale routines. Paul Faulise uses a similar idea in his routine books by suggesting that bass trombonists use all possible equivalent slide and valve positions to develop flexibility and familiarity with equivalent positions.

Is this possible, or even desirable? I've always thought the different partials have slightly different sounds, due to differences in the overtone series, which are due to the physics of the instrument, and thus not something we can control 100%. Though I'm far below that level, I suppose high level players might be able to use these differences to their advantage, to select "alternate" positions based on musical demands. E.g., if the harmony is F major, and you need to play an F3, its overtones would resonate better with the chord if you play it as 4th partial 6th position rather than 3rd partial 1st position. But I may be completely wrong here, this is just guesswork on my side.

No, you’re not wrong.

Is it possible? Yes, it is possible to make equivalent positions sound very much like their standard counterparts. Absolutely 100% like them? No, I don’t believe so, due to physics (acoustics and fluid dynamics—different partials, different ratio of cylindrical to conical tubing, etc.), like you said.

Is it desirable? Yes, I believe so, if that’s part of the aesthetic.

In modern “classical” music performance, one of the top values is to play each note with the same or as-similar-as-possible tone quality. Think of all the Bordogni, Blazevich, Kopprasch, Slama, etc., etude books where teachers emphasize uniform sound, articulation, dynamics, etc., Occasionally, a composer will ask the performer to play notes or a passage a specific way to emphasize differences between notes. Examples might be modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position, or asking string players to play the same note on different strings to emphasize differences. Even Edward Elgar asked the cello soloist to do this in his concerto.

On the other hand, in jazz, playing notes that have the same tone quality note-to-note is much less valued. (Some might even say that tone quality in jazz is over-rated... like Miles Davis...). In some eras of music (according to historically informed performance), differences in register and tone quality were encouraged. Think of the horn writing in the Classical and Romanitc era, where composers often wrote for the horn in a specific key in order to emphasize the sound and color of stopped notes within a chord.

Possible? Yes. Desirable? Yes, depending on the era and aesthetic.

Sorry about the long post... lots to think about...

Just an off-topic question. "Some might even say that tone quality in jazz is over-rated... like Miles Davis." I have never heard this or seen it stated in any first-hand interviews or even second-hand anecdotes. What is your source for this?

I think I went too far with that statement... I hope you’ll forgive the hyperbole...

I was specifically thinking of Leonard Feather, who stated that Miles Davis’ tone quality sounded “like walking on egg shells.” I was also thinking of the differences in tone quality that you hear in many different jazz trombonists, from classics to JJ Johnson, Kai Winding, Jimmy Knepper, Bill Watrous, Bill Harris, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, etc., to moderns like Michael Davis, Robin Eubanks, Steve Turre, Conrad Herwig, etc.

I do think it’s fair to say that in jazz, consistency of tone from note to note (tone cloning), as well as matching tone quality between players, isn’t valued as highly as in “classical” playing, or even commercial/studio playing.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:36 am

In modern music where the composer specifies high Bb in 7th position,

High Bb in 7th position? That would sound modern!

You can play high Bb in 1st, 3rd, 5th and 7th. One of the extended techniques in Stewart Dempster’s book involves rapidly shifting between alternate positions. It’s more effective in the upper register. The technique is used in Folke Rabe’s Basta, and I think Brian Lynn uses it in his Doolalynastics... or maybe it’s Enrique Crespo’s Improvisation No. 1.

I had a quick listen to Folke Rabe’s Basta, and yes, I believe that I heard some Bb's in 7th, but these are in the "quantum" lower slide areas where with a strong enough embouchure, the normal harmonic series breaks down..

From Charles Reneau, bass trombonist, Oregon Symphony:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:20 am From Charles Reneau, bass trombonist, Oregon Symphony:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0Ve67Zk ... 4U_eLfaNwA

Thanks for sharing that - it's really excellent! In the Reinhardt Routines similar advice is suggested, especially to avoid alternate positions when playing loudly. I especially like final paragraph in the doc you shared.

The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."

Pre59 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 08, 2019 12:50 am I had a quick listen to Folke Rabe’s Basta, and yes, I believe that I heard some Bb's in 7th, but these are in the "quantum" lower slide areas where with a strong enough embouchure, the normal harmonic series breaks down..

I have this piece. I don't think there are more than one or two Bbs in 7th, but it does make extensive use of against the grain slurs.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:43 am The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."

There's a certain warm diffuse sound that I sometimes like to to use that comes off longer positions. And re tuning, the D in 1st can often be a little flat, so is it any harder to play it in tune in 4th than an in tune B?

And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?

The bottom line IMO is that in order to play with the people that would like to, you have to play like them, no matter what. That is, until with hard work, talent and luck it becomes you that others have to aspire to..

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:43 am The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."

No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.

Chris

blast wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:03 am

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:43 am The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."

No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.

Chris

--Andy in OKC

blast wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:03 am

baileyman wrote: ↑Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:43 am The Reneau statement is could be shortened to, "Best trombone sound is in close-in positions."

No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.

Chris

Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:49 am

blast wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 4:03 am No.... it could be shortened to 'if you are not good at playing alternate positions you won't sound good when playing alternate positions'.

Chris

Exactly. The idea that notes in further positions do not have good "resonance" deserves, well, no comment.

I think I missed something, baileyman. You made a comment, blast made a counter-statement, and then you agreed with him. However, I don’t know whether blast’s comment changed your mind, or...?

At any rate, I think Charles Reneau’s statement about resonance of alternates/equivalents implies what we all know about them: even when they are in tune, they sound different. They sound different because they lie on different partials. They are at a different position in the harmonic series, and thus have a different mix of high and low frequencies, overtones, etc.

My take-away: you have to practice alternate/equivalent positions to sound good when playing them, and they are best used in certain situations/contexts. But I suppose you might say the same thing about any specific technique in music...

Pre59 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 10, 2019 2:09 am
And where does this leave the F valve, is it inferior to the 6th position having more twists and turns etc?

No, it’s just different. Ok, yes, it might sound a bit different, even though a C in 6th and a C in V1 are the same partial or harmonic.* Regardless, our job as musicians—not just trombonists—is to make them sound as alike as possible. If we can get them to sound the same, even better.

*One of the motivating ideas behind Ed Thayer’s axial flow valve was to get rid of the twists to the resonance column found in a standard rotary valve, with the theory that it was the valve itself (essentially a baffle) and the tight turns in tubing that were contributing to the “inferior” tone.