TromboneChat

So I was watching the new star wars, rogue one this evening with my housemates on dvd. It is such an enjoyable film! But that aside, we got to arguing over who exactly we thought had played in the soundtrack. I was sure a particular person was playing the major horn themes but when I tried to look it up and find a list of the orchestra members I couldn't find anything! Its easy to find the composer and arranger etc... but finding the names of the musicians who actually played seems harder than it should be. In the end I couldn't find a list of who performed in the orchestra on this film.

I am the first to admit that I struggle to use any kind of technology, so it could just be my lack of search engine skills, but am I right? Has anyone else found it difficult to find a list of musicians who played on any particular film they enjoyed the soundtrack for? And does anyone have a link to the list of musicians who performed on Rogue One?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt3748528/fullcredits?ref_=tt_cl_sm#cast

This lists Tawnee Lynn Lillo on French Horn.

Ronnie

All the musicians get listed at the very bottom. After the guy who cleans the portajohns.

Dave Everson played principal horn on Rogue One

That list on IMDb doesn't even begin to cover the whole orchestra.  I wonder if the credit roll at the end of the movie had everyone's name.

I recall when I got my  "The Empire Strikes Back" soundtrack album in 1980 the liner listed the entire London Symphony Orchestra roster.

Trombones:

Dennis Wick
Eric Crees
Roger Groves
Frank Mathison
Arthur Wilson
Roger Brenner

Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Apr 10, 2017, 05:31AMSo I was watching the new star wars, rogue one this evening with my housemates on dvd. It is such an enjoyable film! But that aside, we got to arguing over who exactly we thought had played in the soundtrack. I was sure a particular person was playing the major horn themes but when I tried to look it up and find a list of the orchestra members I couldn't find anything! Its easy to find the composer and arranger etc... but finding the names of the musicians who actually played seems harder than it should be. In the end I couldn't find a list of who performed in the orchestra on this film.

I am the first to admit that I struggle to use any kind of technology, so it could just be my lack of search engine skills, but am I right? Has anyone else found it difficult to find a list of musicians who played on any particular film they enjoyed the soundtrack for? And does anyone have a link to the list of musicians who performed on Rogue One?

Very few studios bother to actually list members of the orchestra in end credits. Notably, Pixar has done this, which makes them even more awesome, if such a low bar didn't have to exist in the rest of the industry.

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 10, 2017, 08:21AMDave Everson played principal horn on Rogue One
Go Blue!!!

Scoring Sessions is usually a good place to get photos of recording sessions and you can usually work out some players from there
http://scoringsessions.com/
However, they don't have Rogue One up, they do have some photos from The Force Awakens http://scoringsessions.com/sessions/24558/ep7_ia_184486.jpg

They rarely list the musicians but if they hired an existing orchestra (rather than a pick-up, session orchestra), that is usually pretty easy to spot in the credits.

Lots of movies and video games in the last 10 or 15 years have hired eastern European orchestras. They are much cheaper, don't have strict union work conditions, and they have now developed somewhat of an expertise in the field.

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 10, 2017, 08:21AMDave Everson played principal horn on Rogue One

I heard Dave also played on The Force Awakens, splitting principal with Andrew Bain.

I believe there was an issue between the Union and the Studios at one point. This resulted in the musicians giving up having their names being listed, in return for royalty payments from films being aired. The option was to have their names listed, but only receive a "one time" pay for the actual sessions. Royalties can sometimes pay more than the sessions, depending on the "size" of the film.

M

I don't think the musicians ever had the credits to "give up" in later negotiations. I can't think of any classic picture that listed performing musicians who don't appear on screen.

I also doubt that they get any residual payments for film work other than when a soundtrack album is sold. The standard AFM contracts are online, perhaps some eager contract reader could peruse them.

Why Aren’t Orchestra Musicians Listed In Movie Credits?
Quote“I can tell you that we tried for several rounds of motion picture negotiations (before my time) to get credit crawl for musicians without success,” said Sazer. “Virtually every square centimeter of credit crawl has been negotiated by other unions at great cost. However, when we were able to negotiate into the contract provisions for the release of soundtracks that allowed a certain number of free units (which are promotional tools for the composer and helped incentivize composers to demand [American Federation of Musicians] coverage) in exchange for including the full orchestra credits on the liner notes or jewel case, an unforeseen benefit was that musicians were added to the credit crawl for a certain number of films that had taken advantage of those provisions. And, some filmmakers just have a thing about it; they like musicians, so, for example, Pixar will frequently list all of us in the credits.”

The last film score I played on (ha!, that makes it sound like a do a bunch of these things... I don't) I'm pretty sure there was a stip in the contract saying we relinquish rights to royalties or any renumeration other than the fee paid for the sessions.

This has become a pretty common stipulation in most recording (film or no) contracts I've signed.

Quote from: robcat2075 on Apr 24, 2017, 05:39PMI also doubt that they get any residual payments for film work other than when a soundtrack album is sold.

Brian O'Conner and James Thatcher say otherwise.

<Edit: Fixed URL cite>

Quote from: fsung on Apr 25, 2017, 10:03AMBrian O'Conner and James Thatcher say otherwise.

<Edit: Fixed URL cite>

Cool! I'll stop worrying about them.

The film musician secondary market fund is the main residual stream for recording musicians.

If you'd like to learn about it www.fmsmf.org

Soundtracks are pretty much marketing tools now and not released in traditional physical media in the numbers like it once was. The MP contract allows for tiered thresholds for the production to pay for the amount of physical soundtracks they release. A number of physical soundtracks are included in the original session

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 25, 2017, 11:37AMThe film musician secondary market fund is the main residual stream for recording musicians.

If you'd like to learn about it www.fmsmf.org

I didn't look at all of them but I couldn't find the word "residual" in the current theatrical film contract.

Are there residuals or aren't there? And what are derived from? To me, it still looks as if musicians do not get residual payments because of the film itself.

https://www.fmsmf.org/PDFs/AMPTP-and-AFM-Basic_TH_MP-Agreement_of_2010-04_14_2010-to-2_23_2013.pdf

Article 15 and 16 talk specifically about secondary market residuals for musicians

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 25, 2017, 02:21PMhttps://www.fmsmf.org/PDFs/AMPTP-and-AFM-Basic_TH_MP-Agreement_of_2010-04_14_2010-to-2_23_2013.pdf

Article 15 and 16 talk specifically about secondary market residuals for musicians

OK, so you get paid something for the recording session and that is what you get for the theatrical run of the  movie no matter how much it makes.

However, if the movie is sold to TV or cable or if a sound track album is sold, then there are formulas for how much more is owed to the "Secondary Fund"

Right?

That's pretty much correct. Secondary market is any revenue stream after theatrical run (DVD, VOD, streaming etc) and there are formulas to calculate the pieces of the pie to be shared among the musicians, orchestrators and other music prep labor.

This was proposed by the AMPTP in the early 1970s to help keep upfront costs down while still compensating professional musicians to have a livable wage. The AFM currently has different tiers depending on the budget of the film with discounted upfront session rates accordingly.

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 25, 2017, 04:43PMThat's pretty much correct. Secondary market is any revenue stream after theatrical run (DVD, VOD, streaming etc) and there are formulas to calculate the pieces of the pie to be shared among the musicians, orchestrators and other music prep labor.

This was proposed by the AMPTP in the early 1970s to help keep upfront costs down while still compensating professional musicians to have a livable wage. The AFM currently has different tiers depending on the budget of the film with discounted upfront session rates accordingly.

In my experience these payments are usually quite small per year per film, but can go on indefinitely. I still receive a yearly cheque for movies scores that we recorded over 30 years ago in Toronto. But the amounts are usually very little depending on the success or popularity of the film. We recorded a Henry Mancini score for 'Without A Clue' in 1988 that still pays a few dollars a year, but not enough to get excited about. I imagine the big blockbuster films might pay significantly more but I wouldn't know.
The government funded Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) which produces many TV films and series however did pay substantial dollars for their secondary market sales. I would periodically receive a cheque for thousands of dollars in a payment. Nice while it lasted. I'm not sure if the same agreements are still in place.

E.P.

Quote from: Slipmo on Apr 25, 2017, 04:43PMThat's pretty much correct. Secondary market is any revenue stream after theatrical run (DVD, VOD, streaming etc) and there are formulas to calculate the pieces of the pie to be shared among the musicians, orchestrators and other music prep labor.

This was proposed by the AMPTP in the early 1970s to help keep upfront costs down while still compensating professional musicians to have a livable wage. The AFM currently has different tiers depending on the budget of the film with discounted upfront session rates accordingly.

In my experience these payments are usually quite small per year per film, but can go on indefinitely. I still receive a yearly cheque for movies scores that we recorded over 30 years ago in Toronto. But the amounts are usually very little depending on the success or popularity of the film. We recorded a Henry Mancini score for 'Without A Clue' in 1988 that still pays a few dollars a year, but not enough to get excited about. I imagine the big blockbuster films might pay significantly more but I wouldn't know.
The government funded Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (CBC) which produces many TV films and series however did pay substantial dollars for their secondary market sales. I would periodically receive a cheque for thousands of dollars in a payment. Nice while it lasted. I'm not sure if the same agreements are still in place.

E.P.